1 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:09,820 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:13,010 with Steve Miller author of near-death 3 00:00:18,370 --> 00:00:15,020 experiences as evidence for the 4 00:00:22,530 --> 00:00:18,380 existence of God in heaven this NDE 5 00:00:26,650 --> 00:00:22,540 science doesn't it really contradict a 6 00:00:29,050 --> 00:00:26,660 Christian worldview an idea that Jesus 7 00:00:31,570 --> 00:00:29,060 is the only way an idea that these are 8 00:00:33,939 --> 00:00:31,580 the sacred books that tell us how heaven 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:33,949 is how the afterlife is I mean it 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:36,890 contradicts that right well I don't see 11 00:00:40,389 --> 00:00:38,690 that I think it's commonly held that it 12 00:00:42,540 --> 00:00:40,399 does contradict and mean many people 13 00:00:46,809 --> 00:00:42,550 believe that it does I think that 14 00:00:49,329 --> 00:00:46,819 certain niche Indies would certainly 15 00:00:52,029 --> 00:00:49,339 contradict certain traditional teachings 16 00:00:55,059 --> 00:00:52,039 of Christianity like having past lives 17 00:00:57,009 --> 00:00:55,069 or whatever if you accept near-death 18 00:01:00,189 --> 00:00:57,019 experience science I don't know how you 19 00:01:02,860 --> 00:01:00,199 get past the reality of past lives I 20 00:01:05,079 --> 00:01:02,870 mean it's all over the place it's not 21 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:05,089 like these indie ears are coming back 22 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:07,850 and saying oh the idea of reincarnation 23 00:01:12,999 --> 00:01:10,850 has been falsified by my experience I 24 00:01:15,069 --> 00:01:13,009 would say that it's rather a fringe 25 00:01:16,450 --> 00:01:15,079 experience just because of my research 26 00:01:18,279 --> 00:01:16,460 and I've not researched it 27 00:01:30,810 --> 00:01:18,289 comprehensively in this area 28 00:01:34,660 --> 00:01:33,070 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 29 00:01:36,940 --> 00:01:34,670 controversial science with leading 30 00:01:39,070 --> 00:01:36,950 researchers thinkers and their critics 31 00:01:41,650 --> 00:01:39,080 I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this 32 00:01:43,870 --> 00:01:41,660 episode of skeptic Oh Steve Miller joins 33 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:43,880 me to talk about his excellent new book 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:46,730 on near-death experience science and in 35 00:01:52,780 --> 00:01:49,010 particular here's the part I was most 36 00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:52,790 interested in and Steve obliged me with 37 00:01:59,620 --> 00:01:55,870 this dialogue is the connection between 38 00:02:02,770 --> 00:01:59,630 near-death experience research science 39 00:02:05,830 --> 00:02:02,780 and the Christian experience or 40 00:02:08,109 --> 00:02:05,840 Christian doctrine as it's practiced by 41 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:08,119 most people around the world it's a 42 00:02:11,590 --> 00:02:10,010 dialogue that I really wanted to have 43 00:02:13,930 --> 00:02:11,600 and have tried to have with several 44 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:13,940 different guests but Steve was willing 45 00:02:19,270 --> 00:02:17,090 to step up and really engage in that 46 00:02:21,490 --> 00:02:19,280 kind of discussion and I appreciate him 47 00:02:24,610 --> 00:02:21,500 doing so here's my dialogue with Steve 48 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:24,620 Miller today we welcome Steve Miller to 49 00:02:29,380 --> 00:02:26,930 skeptic Oh Steve is professional writer 50 00:02:32,130 --> 00:02:29,390 speaker and educator and he's here to 51 00:02:34,570 --> 00:02:32,140 talk about his latest book near-death 52 00:02:37,780 --> 00:02:34,580 experiences as evidence for the 53 00:02:41,140 --> 00:02:37,790 existence of God in heaven a brief 54 00:02:43,180 --> 00:02:41,150 introduction in plain language Steve 55 00:02:45,790 --> 00:02:43,190 welcome to skeptic oh and thanks so much 56 00:02:50,020 --> 00:02:45,800 for joining me today great to be here 57 00:02:53,410 --> 00:02:50,030 thanks for having me well your book is I 58 00:02:56,350 --> 00:02:53,420 think as advertised in the title it has 59 00:02:58,840 --> 00:02:56,360 a very nice overview of the near-death 60 00:03:01,120 --> 00:02:58,850 experience field it's written in plain 61 00:03:04,210 --> 00:03:01,130 language but that's not to say it's 62 00:03:08,229 --> 00:03:04,220 lightweight in any way it has a lot of 63 00:03:10,780 --> 00:03:08,239 references to serious NDE research so in 64 00:03:11,290 --> 00:03:10,790 that respect it is a great primer for 65 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:11,300 people 66 00:03:15,850 --> 00:03:13,970 you also have glowing reviews on Amazon 67 00:03:18,580 --> 00:03:15,860 people seem to really like the book and 68 00:03:20,790 --> 00:03:18,590 as well as that you have a very nice 69 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:20,800 forward from Jeff long so 70 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:23,930 congratulations on a nice book tell us 71 00:03:31,210 --> 00:03:27,489 first who did you write this book for I 72 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:31,220 wrote it for people in general who are 73 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:34,370 interested in near-death experiences 74 00:03:38,949 --> 00:03:35,870 maybe they've had their own near-death 75 00:03:42,350 --> 00:03:38,959 experience in a traffic accident or open 76 00:03:45,860 --> 00:03:42,360 heart surgery or maybe someone has 77 00:03:47,810 --> 00:03:45,870 red heaven is for real or evidence for 78 00:03:50,210 --> 00:03:47,820 heaven or one of these very popular 79 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:50,220 books about someone's personal 80 00:03:55,730 --> 00:03:53,730 experience but they're saying well yeah 81 00:03:59,000 --> 00:03:55,740 well that's cool but do I trust this 82 00:04:01,550 --> 00:03:59,010 person and you know is this you know I'm 83 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:01,560 basing it on this I mean these popular 84 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:03,450 books tend to be based on one person's 85 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:07,290 experience and is this really evidential 86 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:08,970 at all or is it just one person's word 87 00:04:14,449 --> 00:04:10,770 against another so I want to take people 88 00:04:16,460 --> 00:04:14,459 a step further once they read one of 89 00:04:18,409 --> 00:04:16,470 these other books and say what what does 90 00:04:20,569 --> 00:04:18,419 the evidence say from the research 91 00:04:23,390 --> 00:04:20,579 that's actually gone on over the past 35 92 00:04:26,180 --> 00:04:23,400 years because I find that typically 93 00:04:27,260 --> 00:04:26,190 people are totally unaware of that they 94 00:04:28,310 --> 00:04:27,270 think this is just something where 95 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:28,320 people are sharing their personal 96 00:04:33,620 --> 00:04:31,500 experiences and they say hey it's one 97 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:33,630 person's word against the other there's 98 00:04:38,659 --> 00:04:35,940 no evidence here at all so what does the 99 00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:38,669 research say well I think you're right I 100 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:41,160 think there is that gap in the knowledge 101 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:43,650 out there among the general public and I 102 00:04:48,110 --> 00:04:46,010 think we can see it in the popularity of 103 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:48,120 some of the books that have come along I 104 00:04:53,900 --> 00:04:49,890 mean people I'm always surprised that 105 00:04:55,430 --> 00:04:53,910 people are surprised I'm surprised that 106 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:55,440 they're surprised in a way because 107 00:05:00,020 --> 00:04:57,570 obviously on this show we've dug into 108 00:05:02,210 --> 00:05:00,030 this so much so look but let me turn 109 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:02,220 this slightly because we've had a really 110 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:04,710 nice email correspondence about this 111 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:08,130 interview and I pushed back pretty hard 112 00:05:12,260 --> 00:05:09,570 because I said you know gee see you got 113 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:12,270 a nice book about near-death experience 114 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:14,850 here but the stuff that really interests 115 00:05:21,770 --> 00:05:18,330 me on skeptic oh is I think the stuff 116 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:21,780 that happens after we accept the 117 00:05:27,380 --> 00:05:24,690 mountain of evidence that you provide in 118 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:27,390 your book and I always think of it as 119 00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:31,050 the how can this be questioned you know 120 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:33,390 because that was my personal experience 121 00:05:39,350 --> 00:05:36,930 when I ran across this evidence like you 122 00:05:41,570 --> 00:05:39,360 present in your book my first question 123 00:05:44,890 --> 00:05:41,580 was wait a minute wait a minute how can 124 00:05:47,510 --> 00:05:44,900 this be I mean this sits in a very 125 00:05:51,310 --> 00:05:47,520 uncomfortable place if you will this 126 00:05:53,659 --> 00:05:51,320 assertion that there is this body of 127 00:05:56,010 --> 00:05:53,669 scientific research that suggests that 128 00:05:57,570 --> 00:05:56,020 consciousness survives after our death 129 00:05:59,790 --> 00:05:57,580 it sits in an uncomfortable place 130 00:06:02,969 --> 00:05:59,800 because on one hand it goes against 131 00:06:06,629 --> 00:06:02,979 science and on the other hand it does 132 00:06:10,050 --> 00:06:06,639 challenge a lot of the religious 133 00:06:12,809 --> 00:06:10,060 doctrine that we normally accept what 134 00:06:16,860 --> 00:06:12,819 are your thoughts on maybe in general 135 00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:16,870 this how can this be questioned I think 136 00:06:21,689 --> 00:06:19,030 that that a lot of people have and then 137 00:06:25,379 --> 00:06:21,699 secondly where do you think this NDE 138 00:06:29,189 --> 00:06:25,389 research does sit where does it position 139 00:06:30,719 --> 00:06:29,199 itself in this culture war nonsense that 140 00:06:31,879 --> 00:06:30,729 we keep running up against between 141 00:06:34,620 --> 00:06:31,889 science and religion 142 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:34,630 we've asked several questions so come 143 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:36,490 back to me if I've missed one of them 144 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:39,610 but I would say the priority of the 145 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:43,900 paradigm explains a lot I mean the one 146 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:45,610 of the best books I ever read was the 147 00:06:50,969 --> 00:06:48,310 structure of scientific revolutions by 148 00:06:52,999 --> 00:06:50,979 Kuhn and I would recommend for everyone 149 00:06:55,439 --> 00:06:53,009 to read that who's interested at all in 150 00:06:57,629 --> 00:06:55,449 controversial subjects of a scientific 151 00:06:59,610 --> 00:06:57,639 nature because we tend to think of 152 00:07:02,129 --> 00:06:59,620 science as being something where this 153 00:07:04,529 --> 00:07:02,139 totally objective scientists it's in a 154 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:04,539 lab and whatever happens whether it 155 00:07:08,879 --> 00:07:06,610 agrees or disagrees with his current 156 00:07:11,189 --> 00:07:08,889 theory he just accepts it is this 157 00:07:13,350 --> 00:07:11,199 totally objective person but the history 158 00:07:15,769 --> 00:07:13,360 of science would show this is not the 159 00:07:18,629 --> 00:07:15,779 case I mean look at how hard it was for 160 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:18,639 Einstein's theory to be accepted and you 161 00:07:24,019 --> 00:07:20,650 had people from the top universities in 162 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:24,029 the world saying this is ridiculous 163 00:07:29,580 --> 00:07:26,710 and it took years for people to come 164 00:07:32,070 --> 00:07:29,590 around quantum physics is even worse I 165 00:07:33,930 --> 00:07:32,080 mean Einstein he was objective enough to 166 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:33,940 find something new but when it came to 167 00:07:38,939 --> 00:07:36,460 accepting quantum physics he resisted it 168 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:38,949 his entire life he didn't want the 169 00:07:44,339 --> 00:07:41,490 universe to be that way he was a 170 00:07:47,939 --> 00:07:44,349 determinist he wanted he thought it was 171 00:07:50,219 --> 00:07:47,949 very important for science to be able to 172 00:07:53,939 --> 00:07:50,229 say everything is totally determined by 173 00:07:55,469 --> 00:07:53,949 past circumstances and and quantum 174 00:07:57,809 --> 00:07:55,479 physics went against that and he was 175 00:07:59,939 --> 00:07:57,819 uncomfortable so people get into their 176 00:08:02,670 --> 00:07:59,949 paradigm their way of thinking about 177 00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:02,680 things and for the last century or so 178 00:08:08,279 --> 00:08:05,860 especially naturalism has kind had a 179 00:08:09,690 --> 00:08:08,289 hold on a lot of scientists many of them 180 00:08:12,780 --> 00:08:09,700 simply think that 181 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:12,790 things that are supernatural even if 182 00:08:17,130 --> 00:08:15,490 they happen there's no real evidence 183 00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:17,140 that they happen and they're just 184 00:08:21,990 --> 00:08:19,390 uncomfortable thinking like that and 185 00:08:24,210 --> 00:08:22,000 from my experience when I talked to 186 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:24,220 people who hold different paradigms than 187 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:26,770 my own and listen I I'm subject to the 188 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:29,170 paradigm like anyone else we all have to 189 00:08:33,210 --> 00:08:31,150 fight it but when I'm talking to someone 190 00:08:34,770 --> 00:08:33,220 who's a naturalist they just look 191 00:08:37,410 --> 00:08:34,780 through my book and check off each 192 00:08:38,490 --> 00:08:37,420 paragraph and say they find a reason not 193 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:38,500 to believe that 194 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:41,110 well the researcher was probably a 195 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:45,430 closet of theists trying to make it well 196 00:08:48,510 --> 00:08:46,930 there's no evidence that he was a theist 197 00:08:50,250 --> 00:08:48,520 there's no evidence he's saying that he 198 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:50,260 didn't even believe in God in heaven 199 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:53,260 before this and now oh yeah well but 200 00:08:57,180 --> 00:08:55,060 there's no evidence for that and they'll 201 00:08:58,410 --> 00:08:57,190 just keep coming back because they they 202 00:09:00,810 --> 00:08:58,420 look at the world through the 203 00:09:02,490 --> 00:09:00,820 rose-colored glasses and that's all they 204 00:09:05,490 --> 00:09:02,500 can see so to me that's the biggest 205 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:05,500 issue it's not the evidence that the 206 00:09:10,350 --> 00:09:08,410 data is there people either ignore the 207 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:10,360 data or they'd reinterpreted in the 208 00:09:15,450 --> 00:09:13,330 light of their paradigm hey-up I'm with 209 00:09:17,430 --> 00:09:15,460 you I mean we're totally on the same 210 00:09:20,310 --> 00:09:17,440 page about that and I know you've 211 00:09:22,170 --> 00:09:20,320 listened to several skeptic osho so you 212 00:09:23,850 --> 00:09:22,180 know that's kind of my mantra I mean I 213 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:23,860 started this thing saying gee this is 214 00:09:27,810 --> 00:09:25,870 this is no problem we can get a handle 215 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:27,820 on this it's about the data let's dig 216 00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:29,170 into the data and wherever the data 217 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:32,800 falls that's where we'll follow and that 218 00:09:37,710 --> 00:09:35,110 was my own thought my own orientation 219 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:37,720 and then I got into I said gee it's not 220 00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:39,460 about the date it's about everything 221 00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:42,220 else it's about social pressures it's 222 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:43,960 about preconceived notions and it's 223 00:09:49,770 --> 00:09:47,230 about all that so I'm with you on all 224 00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:49,780 that but let me kind of push one step 225 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:51,900 further because you're a Christian and 226 00:09:57,510 --> 00:09:54,970 you bring a Christian sensibility to 227 00:09:59,220 --> 00:09:57,520 this book and and that's that's great 228 00:10:01,560 --> 00:09:59,230 but I have to tell you and again if 229 00:10:02,790 --> 00:10:01,570 you've listened to skeptic oh or maybe I 230 00:10:04,860 --> 00:10:02,800 should say if someone's listened to a 231 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:04,870 lot of skeptical then they know that 232 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:08,250 I've tried to approach this question of 233 00:10:14,610 --> 00:10:12,910 what NDEs mean to people who have a 234 00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:14,620 Christian worldview and I've approached 235 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:16,720 that a couple times I spoke with Gary 236 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:19,450 Habermas somebody who I really like and 237 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:23,500 respect a very highly regarded 238 00:10:28,050 --> 00:10:25,450 teacher and author author of more than 239 00:10:28,590 --> 00:10:28,060 30 books Christian apologist kind of 240 00:10:32,090 --> 00:10:28,600 stuff 241 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:32,100 I also talked to Michael Heizer scholar 242 00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:35,050 biblical scholar Neary studies scholar 243 00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:37,060 and it seems like I always come to the 244 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:40,180 same point and I never am able to pin 245 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:44,490 anyone down I say look doesn't this NDE 246 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:48,490 stuff this in de science doesn't it 247 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:52,090 really contradict a Christian worldview 248 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:56,290 an idea that Jesus is the only way an 249 00:11:00,360 --> 00:10:58,330 idea that these are the sacred books 250 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:00,370 that tell us how heaven is how the 251 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:03,880 afterlife is I mean it contradicts that 252 00:11:09,570 --> 00:11:07,570 right well I don't see that I think it's 253 00:11:11,220 --> 00:11:09,580 commonly held that it does contradict 254 00:11:17,090 --> 00:11:11,230 and mean many people believe that it 255 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:17,100 does I think that certain certain niche 256 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:20,230 Indies would certainly contradict 257 00:11:25,020 --> 00:11:22,030 certain traditional teachings of 258 00:11:27,540 --> 00:11:25,030 Christianity like having past lives or 259 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:27,550 whatever and some people will come back 260 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:29,740 from an NDE saying that I experience 261 00:11:35,070 --> 00:11:33,580 something from a past life to move let 262 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:35,080 me let me interject there and kind of 263 00:11:39,690 --> 00:11:37,810 pin that down that's not a core part of 264 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:39,700 the near-death experience but it's 265 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:42,370 certainly pretty close to a core part of 266 00:11:45,780 --> 00:11:43,930 the near-death experience I mean that 267 00:11:47,550 --> 00:11:45,790 isn't just a fringe thing and like 268 00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:47,560 that's what I get like from from Gary 269 00:11:51,330 --> 00:11:49,660 Habermas if remember that interview it's 270 00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:51,340 like a lot of dancing around like well 271 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:53,680 you know there's a lot of stuff out 272 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:55,570 there but we don't know for sure hey if 273 00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,740 you accept 274 00:12:01,890 --> 00:11:58,720 near-death experience science I don't 275 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:01,900 know how you get a past that the reality 276 00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:05,110 of past lives I mean it's all over the 277 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:07,839 place it's not like these indie ears are 278 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:10,020 coming back and saying oh the idea of 279 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:13,120 reincarnation has been falsified by my 280 00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:14,770 experience I've never read a single 281 00:12:19,110 --> 00:12:16,960 near-death experience account that says 282 00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:19,120 that and on the other hand I've read 283 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:21,430 scores and scores of them that's that 284 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:24,490 just us either assume it or directly say 285 00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:27,550 that multiple lives reincarnation is a 286 00:12:33,570 --> 00:12:31,600 reality well I would say that it's 287 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:33,580 rather a fringe experience just because 288 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:35,770 of my research and I've not researched 289 00:12:40,650 --> 00:12:36,850 at comprehensive 290 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:40,660 in this area but looking at I took dr. 291 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:41,350 Long's 292 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:44,050 indirect site where people are sharing 293 00:12:48,689 --> 00:12:46,690 their experiences and you have a 294 00:12:50,579 --> 00:12:48,699 tremendous amount of them there and so I 295 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:50,589 went through carefully about a hundred 296 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:53,980 experiences back to back in other words 297 00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:56,170 I wasn't cherry picking I was just going 298 00:13:00,660 --> 00:12:58,240 one after another after another and 299 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:00,670 within a hundred experiences I don't 300 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:03,250 believe I saw anywhere a person referred 301 00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:08,170 to a past life now guarantee if I go far 302 00:13:13,530 --> 00:13:10,660 enough on his site I'll see some that 303 00:13:16,259 --> 00:13:13,540 have that but my question is it's not 304 00:13:19,019 --> 00:13:16,269 how many of those you can probably 305 00:13:20,730 --> 00:13:19,029 lineup scores of experiences and show me 306 00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:20,740 and say hey here all the people who talk 307 00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:23,680 about past lives but the percentage of 308 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:25,839 them to me is very small it's like dr. 309 00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:28,410 moody would say some people talk about 310 00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:30,790 prophesies of the future that they went 311 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:32,230 to the other side and they told them 312 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:33,850 about the future and then they'll say 313 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:35,769 something when they come back about this 314 00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:38,110 is a future event and it may happen or 315 00:13:41,999 --> 00:13:39,940 may not but he would say that's kind of 316 00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,009 a fringe thing it happens every now and 317 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:44,800 then and of course occasionally some bum 318 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:47,110 back talking about visiting with a 319 00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:49,689 relative who is not deceased on the 320 00:13:55,290 --> 00:13:52,660 other side but those do happen you might 321 00:13:57,420 --> 00:13:55,300 could line up a good many of them but I 322 00:13:59,790 --> 00:13:57,430 just didn't see it that much in my 323 00:14:01,350 --> 00:13:59,800 research so that I would say that that's 324 00:14:04,439 --> 00:14:01,360 one of those things that sometimes 325 00:14:07,139 --> 00:14:04,449 happens I just tended to stay in my 326 00:14:10,079 --> 00:14:07,149 research with the main body of what is 327 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:10,089 happening and what it looks like is 95 328 00:14:14,579 --> 00:14:12,490 percent of the cases and I realized that 329 00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:14,589 sometimes people may come back with a 330 00:14:19,769 --> 00:14:17,680 false memory or people may have reasons 331 00:14:21,929 --> 00:14:19,779 for saying things sometimes it's 332 00:14:23,970 --> 00:14:21,939 legitimate sometimes people in a very 333 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:23,980 distraught state are going back and 334 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:26,740 forth between some kind of a delusional 335 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:28,170 experience and a near-death experience 336 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:30,910 so I just kind of stayed with what I saw 337 00:14:36,269 --> 00:14:33,610 is the 95 percent of what happens in 338 00:14:38,429 --> 00:14:36,279 this experience and and I stuck with 339 00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:38,439 that so I didn't really go off into the 340 00:14:42,329 --> 00:14:40,600 others and spend much time there even 341 00:14:45,329 --> 00:14:42,339 distressing near-death experience is 342 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:45,339 very common but I didn't go there well I 343 00:14:48,509 --> 00:14:47,170 don't think they are very common and I 344 00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:48,519 understand where you're going but I 345 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:50,670 think that that's also problematic 346 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:52,530 because at the end of the day we don't 347 00:14:56,210 --> 00:14:54,210 understand what the near-death 348 00:14:58,460 --> 00:14:56,220 experience is we don't understand what 349 00:15:00,590 --> 00:14:58,470 this other realm is the implications are 350 00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:00,600 clear about what it is but when we start 351 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:02,910 digging into the content the way that 352 00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:04,890 you are the content of these experiences 353 00:15:10,130 --> 00:15:07,920 it becomes very problematic so I'm okay 354 00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:10,140 with not going there I'm a little bit 355 00:15:18,260 --> 00:15:14,670 nut is okay in saying well we can we can 356 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:18,270 therefore look for these larger patterns 357 00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:20,850 because as I just said I think the the 358 00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:22,710 larger pattern is clear that 359 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:24,600 reincarnation is a part of it you don't 360 00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:26,010 see it that way and then we'd have some 361 00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:28,860 content analysis debate let me say this 362 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:30,470 though in in that regard 363 00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:32,850 some people think of Christians as 364 00:15:36,290 --> 00:15:35,190 having a very tight theology and we kind 365 00:15:39,170 --> 00:15:36,300 of know what's going to happen with 366 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:39,180 everything and to me the Apostle Paul 367 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:43,130 said said that we see in a mirror darkly 368 00:15:49,610 --> 00:15:46,410 but then we will see face to face I'm 369 00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:49,620 fully aware that one day when when I go 370 00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:51,510 to the other side I'll be corrected 371 00:15:54,950 --> 00:15:52,800 about a lot of the things that I believe 372 00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:54,960 you know maybe some of the things that I 373 00:16:00,140 --> 00:15:57,600 thought about past lives or are actually 374 00:16:01,550 --> 00:16:00,150 just nonsense and we're never clearly 375 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:01,560 taught in the scripture as I thought 376 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:03,690 they were so I'm kind of open to the 377 00:16:07,370 --> 00:16:05,610 data out there I'm still looking I'm 378 00:16:10,010 --> 00:16:07,380 still searching and trying to keep an 379 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:10,020 open mind as well fair enough and we 380 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:12,090 should all keep an open mind but I want 381 00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:13,920 to come back to this to this point and 382 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:15,780 and because it's really the point that 383 00:16:22,130 --> 00:16:18,210 interests me most about this thing and 384 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:22,140 that's that does the body of the 385 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:25,050 near-death experience research does he 386 00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:26,330 contradict 387 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:29,940 Christian doctrine and it just does I 388 00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:31,650 mean you mentioned Jeff langue who wrote 389 00:16:35,570 --> 00:16:33,630 a nice foreword introduction to your 390 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:35,580 book he's been on this show a couple 391 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:38,010 times I asked him the question directly 392 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:40,850 based on his research does this 393 00:16:47,270 --> 00:16:44,730 experience support the idea of the 394 00:16:49,550 --> 00:16:47,280 primacy of Christianity because that is 395 00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:49,560 a claim of Christianity Christianity 396 00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:52,230 doesn't claim oh I'm one of many paths 397 00:16:57,170 --> 00:16:55,470 to this higher consciousness to God 398 00:16:59,180 --> 00:16:57,180 however we want to understand it that's 399 00:17:01,520 --> 00:16:59,190 not the Christian claim the Christian 400 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:01,530 claim is this is the path this is the 401 00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:04,090 way this is superior in some way 402 00:17:07,770 --> 00:17:06,220 even if you're an open-minded most 403 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:07,780 liberal Christian you say hey there 404 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:09,730 might be other paths this and that at 405 00:17:14,310 --> 00:17:12,010 one I don't see how you can really get 406 00:17:17,070 --> 00:17:14,320 that out of the scripture number one but 407 00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:17,080 number two even if you say that III 408 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:19,590 don't think it's really the the 409 00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:22,810 mainstream view among Christians so 410 00:17:27,930 --> 00:17:25,030 given that people like Jeff long and 411 00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:27,940 virtually every not virtually every 412 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:29,590 near-death experience researcher I've 413 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:32,470 talked to says that the the science the 414 00:17:37,290 --> 00:17:34,090 evidence we get back from near-death 415 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:37,300 experience does not support the primacy 416 00:17:43,230 --> 00:17:40,330 of Christianity then what does someone 417 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:43,240 do with that if you have a Christian 418 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:46,090 worldview well first of all I disagree 419 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:49,330 with your with your statement that 420 00:17:59,370 --> 00:17:52,630 virtually all of them don't support the 421 00:18:01,860 --> 00:17:59,380 who supports bomb hoops about did strong 422 00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:01,870 research on it just after moody he wrote 423 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:03,580 several books on it he did two different 424 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:06,310 very good studies also taught at emory 425 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:09,370 university and very respected researcher 426 00:18:14,420 --> 00:18:12,610 and he became more evangelical in his 427 00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:14,430 Christian faith he was kind of a 428 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:17,920 moderate sort of Christian when he 429 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:20,110 started and then he saw the experience 430 00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:22,270 and he said wow there's another side and 431 00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:24,790 his time went on he became like an elder 432 00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:26,800 in his church and came to support more 433 00:18:31,170 --> 00:18:28,780 traditional doctrines so I would say 434 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:31,180 there are those there now I think that 435 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:33,250 there are those there that what see 436 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:35,500 because Steve I can see how someone 437 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:38,500 could have this experience or be exposed 438 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:42,040 to this material and then say therefore 439 00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:45,190 I am going to choose this religious life 440 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:48,550 I am going to express my spirituality in 441 00:18:53,730 --> 00:18:51,130 this way I can understand that what I 442 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:53,740 don't see and I don't know I I know a 443 00:18:59,130 --> 00:18:55,930 little I know that subhan is a as a 444 00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:59,140 Christian and he has that belief system 445 00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:01,600 but I don't know how you get from the 446 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:03,940 evidence to that the evidence just 447 00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:06,940 doesn't support that it did just I don't 448 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:09,070 know who who you can really say whose 449 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:10,390 pointing to the evidence and says 450 00:19:14,820 --> 00:19:13,180 because of the evidence I think that 451 00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:14,830 leads to a Christian worldview or I 452 00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:16,480 think it supports the primacy of 453 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:17,500 Christianity I don't see 454 00:19:21,630 --> 00:19:19,660 that anywhere well that's why I had one 455 00:19:22,890 --> 00:19:21,640 full chapter comparing many of the 456 00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:22,900 things that we learned from near-death 457 00:19:27,180 --> 00:19:25,840 experiences to Christianity now III 458 00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:27,190 think that you're a little bit 459 00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:29,320 wrongheaded in my opinion in saying that 460 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:30,670 somebody's going to have this experience 461 00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:33,910 and then conclude Jesus is the way to 462 00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:37,270 God and all these Central Christian 463 00:19:42,030 --> 00:19:39,910 truths I don't see that I see it as more 464 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:42,040 like natural theology where somebody 465 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:43,930 looks up in the Stars and the heavens 466 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:47,050 and the complexity of cells and says hey 467 00:19:51,390 --> 00:19:48,670 this didn't get here by itself by 468 00:19:53,250 --> 00:19:51,400 naturalistic means somehow there's got 469 00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:53,260 to be something greater up there I think 470 00:19:58,380 --> 00:19:56,140 beyond us so to me when I looking at 471 00:20:00,240 --> 00:19:58,390 near-death experience oh it could be 472 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:00,250 consistent with several different 473 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:02,050 religions it's not pointing to 474 00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:04,810 exclusively one it could be consistent 475 00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:08,320 with many religions but it at least gets 476 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:12,160 us past naturalism it gets us to saying 477 00:20:15,630 --> 00:20:13,450 there's something on the other side 478 00:20:18,210 --> 00:20:15,640 that's significant there's more to life 479 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:18,220 these people have these life reviews it 480 00:20:22,290 --> 00:20:19,570 tells us something about what's 481 00:20:23,970 --> 00:20:22,300 important with life about life hey it 482 00:20:26,730 --> 00:20:23,980 could have been anything that what he 483 00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:26,740 says is the primacy of love of caring 484 00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:28,780 for those around us these are the 485 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:30,580 important things hey you looked at the 486 00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:32,830 scriptures what does Jesus say is the 487 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:35,500 most important thing you know love your 488 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:37,630 neighbor as yourself and there there's 489 00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:39,610 so many things that are consistent with 490 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:41,860 it but no I don't think it's pointing 491 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:44,170 exclusively to Christianity as and 492 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:46,330 someone has this experience and says oh 493 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:49,330 well now I know that that that God is 494 00:20:53,610 --> 00:20:50,530 true now let me tell you a little 495 00:20:55,620 --> 00:20:53,620 something about my theology as to why I 496 00:20:57,420 --> 00:20:55,630 think you're assuming that if 497 00:20:59,610 --> 00:20:57,430 Christianity were true that they would 498 00:21:01,890 --> 00:20:59,620 go to the other side God would introduce 499 00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:01,900 them to Jesus and say listen here's the 500 00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:04,480 one you need to follow here's how to get 501 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:06,550 saved and you go back and get your life 502 00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:09,250 together but everything I see in the 503 00:21:16,290 --> 00:21:11,760 scripture says that that's just not 504 00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:16,300 God's mode of operation is just giving 505 00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:19,840 everyone this whole ball of theology 506 00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:22,030 himself it was always given to the 507 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:24,640 disciples to do that 508 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:28,090 - for people to spread the message I 509 00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:30,310 don't know why does that but that seems 510 00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:31,360 to be his method of 511 00:21:36,030 --> 00:21:33,640 operation when the Apostle Paul had a 512 00:21:37,710 --> 00:21:36,040 vision in the book of Acts he didn't 513 00:21:40,650 --> 00:21:37,720 have a vision of the whole Jesus thing 514 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:40,660 or how to get saved he was told to go to 515 00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:42,910 another person and that person and 516 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:46,030 people within the church gave him the 517 00:21:53,460 --> 00:21:49,330 further steps so if I had never heard of 518 00:21:55,530 --> 00:21:53,470 an NDE and someone said okay if you if a 519 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:55,540 person who is a non-believer went to be 520 00:22:01,530 --> 00:21:58,510 before God what would God tell him I 521 00:22:04,590 --> 00:22:01,540 would not expect for him to to go into 522 00:22:07,230 --> 00:22:04,600 all this detail to me again it's just 523 00:22:10,590 --> 00:22:07,240 like natural theology he wants to get 524 00:22:12,330 --> 00:22:10,600 you to search seek and ye shall find and 525 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:12,340 he wants that person to go back and 526 00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:15,250 search but you're right it doesn't point 527 00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:17,740 exclusively to Christianity and and I 528 00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:20,559 wouldn't expect it to okay and just to 529 00:22:25,890 --> 00:22:23,440 be clear because I've spoken about this 530 00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:25,900 many times I totally agree with the 531 00:22:31,409 --> 00:22:28,720 first part of what you said I think we 532 00:22:34,370 --> 00:22:31,419 are on solid ground when we say that the 533 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:34,380 near ette near-death experience one 534 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:38,890 falsifies this craziness that we find 535 00:22:45,150 --> 00:22:41,370 ourselves in this atheistic 536 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:45,160 materialistic craziness that tells you 537 00:22:54,210 --> 00:22:49,290 that you are just your brain you are a 538 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:54,220 biological robot that's nuts and we need 539 00:23:00,450 --> 00:22:57,730 to firmly stand up and say that I think 540 00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:00,460 your book does that I think the evidence 541 00:23:05,610 --> 00:23:03,190 that you bring forward does that and I'm 542 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:05,620 very comfortable saying that I am also 543 00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:08,470 comfortable moving from there and saying 544 00:23:15,090 --> 00:23:11,230 okay if we're willing to accept this 545 00:23:17,789 --> 00:23:15,100 data this body of evidence then what is 546 00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:17,799 the what are we willing to accept in 547 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:19,720 terms of the content of the message and 548 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:22,720 I'm totally in agreement with you the 549 00:23:28,169 --> 00:23:25,210 content of the message and this is often 550 00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:28,179 overlooked by it's not overlooked but 551 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:29,860 it's downplayed by some near-death 552 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:32,350 experience researchers because it 553 00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:36,250 challenges our spiritual sensibilities 554 00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:38,260 and we like to kind of play it clean and 555 00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:40,720 and not get too woowoo with it and 556 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:43,630 that's that it's about love right it's 557 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:45,230 about caring for other 558 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:47,690 people it's not about promoting yourself 559 00:23:53,020 --> 00:23:50,570 or any of your big accomplishments it's 560 00:23:55,419 --> 00:23:53,030 about the smile you gave that that 561 00:23:58,570 --> 00:23:55,429 person it's helping someone who need it 562 00:24:01,210 --> 00:23:58,580 it's it's the it's true charity it's the 563 00:24:03,789 --> 00:24:01,220 unselfish acts we do that comes through 564 00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:03,799 loud and clear I stand on that from this 565 00:24:08,980 --> 00:24:05,840 near-death experience research as you do 566 00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:08,990 and say that that's true I just think 567 00:24:15,250 --> 00:24:11,150 we're getting crossways a little bit 568 00:24:17,620 --> 00:24:15,260 Steve in terms of when we say what does 569 00:24:21,250 --> 00:24:17,630 that mean because the other part of this 570 00:24:24,669 --> 00:24:21,260 how can this be question is how can this 571 00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:24,679 not be in my church how can that's not 572 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:27,200 be in my Christian doctrine how can this 573 00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:30,410 not be in my scripture that I think is 574 00:24:36,159 --> 00:24:33,350 such an important part of my spiritual 575 00:24:39,159 --> 00:24:36,169 experience so it I look at it as not 576 00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:39,169 like the the near-death experience 577 00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:44,540 research precludes my belief in Chris 578 00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:46,400 Christian faith or Christian 579 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:48,830 spirituality because I'm a big tent guy 580 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:50,330 when I come to that when I come to that 581 00:24:53,919 --> 00:24:51,650 I just look at the evidence for 582 00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:53,929 Christianity and say hey there's plenty 583 00:24:58,270 --> 00:24:55,820 of people that seem to have this 584 00:25:01,060 --> 00:24:58,280 Christian experience and it seems to 585 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:01,070 lead to all these things that are 586 00:25:05,409 --> 00:25:03,770 positive and are in line with what this 587 00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:05,419 near-death experience research is 588 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:07,160 telling us they do seem more loving 589 00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:09,410 hey they do seem to be more less 590 00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:11,270 materialistic and more in tune with that 591 00:25:16,930 --> 00:25:13,840 I think that's strong evidence for 592 00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:16,940 something real happening in their 593 00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:19,640 Christian experience but I'm not will I 594 00:25:26,669 --> 00:25:21,919 have to draw the line there and say I'm 595 00:25:29,770 --> 00:25:26,679 also kind of really a stickler about 596 00:25:32,169 --> 00:25:29,780 connecting these things logically and 597 00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:32,179 rationally and when I do that I say 598 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:34,880 there are problems that we have to admit 599 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:37,010 that we've been kind of led down this 600 00:25:41,140 --> 00:25:39,650 path in terms of Christianity in the way 601 00:25:42,909 --> 00:25:41,150 it's practiced in the United States the 602 00:25:46,570 --> 00:25:42,919 way it's practiced in the world in terms 603 00:25:47,860 --> 00:25:46,580 of that doctrine that Dogma and what 604 00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:47,870 we're finding from the near-death 605 00:25:53,289 --> 00:25:51,200 experience research so I don't know it 606 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:53,299 does I don't know if that helps you 607 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:55,130 understand where I'm coming from but I'm 608 00:25:58,840 --> 00:25:56,690 not against someone having a Christian 609 00:26:01,060 --> 00:25:58,850 experience in becoming more 610 00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:01,070 spiritual or that affecting their life I 611 00:26:04,270 --> 00:26:02,900 think there's a reality to that I mean I 612 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:04,280 don't only have a problem with that I 613 00:26:08,110 --> 00:26:06,350 think that's a reality I just don't 614 00:26:09,670 --> 00:26:08,120 think it connects with the science in 615 00:26:11,790 --> 00:26:09,680 the way that that maybe you're talking 616 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:11,800 about yeah I don't think it it 617 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:14,690 disconnects I again I just don't think 618 00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:17,450 if you're only looking at near-death 619 00:26:21,070 --> 00:26:19,340 experiences as your only piece of 620 00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:21,080 evidence I don't get all the way to 621 00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:23,900 Christianity I get to God I get to love 622 00:26:27,730 --> 00:26:26,060 I get to saying there are beings on the 623 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:27,740 other side there's more to this world 624 00:26:31,930 --> 00:26:29,350 than meets the eye 625 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:31,940 many things that are very important that 626 00:26:35,860 --> 00:26:34,310 I get to through near-death experiences 627 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:35,870 but I don't get all the way it's just 628 00:26:43,150 --> 00:26:37,910 one line of the evidence now to me 629 00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,160 personally what what brings me all the 630 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:45,200 way over to Christianity tends to be 631 00:26:49,390 --> 00:26:47,450 other types of evidence like the 632 00:26:51,940 --> 00:26:49,400 historical evidence concerning the 633 00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:51,950 scriptures things like and I mean these 634 00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:53,030 are things that we don't need to get 635 00:26:57,310 --> 00:26:54,080 into because they're really off the 636 00:26:59,590 --> 00:26:57,320 point but there's a cumulative case for 637 00:27:02,170 --> 00:26:59,600 me that goes beyond near-death 638 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:02,180 experiences that I bring in so the 639 00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:03,890 near-death experiences don't get me all 640 00:27:07,270 --> 00:27:05,750 the way there but but let me bring us 641 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:07,280 back to one other thing and I know that 642 00:27:11,260 --> 00:27:09,860 you're two you two you you've been 643 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:11,270 through all these interviews and you've 644 00:27:16,780 --> 00:27:14,210 got excellent encourage any listener if 645 00:27:19,270 --> 00:27:16,790 this is your first one to listen to go 646 00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:19,280 in and listen to these other interviews 647 00:27:23,950 --> 00:27:22,190 alex has collected some tremendous 648 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:23,960 interviews here from many different 649 00:27:30,490 --> 00:27:27,890 perspectives but for so many of the 650 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:30,500 listeners they're nowhere near where 651 00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:32,690 alex is and his comprehension of this 652 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:34,820 data that we're talking about of the 653 00:27:41,710 --> 00:27:39,170 last 35 years I was totally shocked 654 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:41,720 totally shocked after I read heaven is 655 00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:43,130 for real and I said well this is an 656 00:27:47,530 --> 00:27:45,020 interesting heart touching story but 657 00:27:50,620 --> 00:27:47,540 there's no real evidence there and then 658 00:27:53,260 --> 00:27:50,630 one of the people who wrote a blurb for 659 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:53,270 that book said that they had studied the 660 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:54,770 research or they were researching 661 00:27:58,390 --> 00:27:56,810 near-death experiences and this was 662 00:28:01,030 --> 00:27:58,400 consistent with their research and I 663 00:28:02,820 --> 00:28:01,040 thought who's researching this stuff now 664 00:28:05,170 --> 00:28:02,830 I've heard of Moody's book from back in 665 00:28:07,150 --> 00:28:05,180 1975 but I never read it because I 666 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:07,160 thought this is just people's personal 667 00:28:12,270 --> 00:28:10,010 opinions what is this so I begin to get 668 00:28:14,850 --> 00:28:12,280 into the research and find out that 669 00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:14,860 over 900 articles on near-death 670 00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:17,220 experiences were published in scholarly 671 00:28:23,250 --> 00:28:20,350 material literature prior to 2005 672 00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:23,260 they've been it's been in journals such 673 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:25,900 as psychiatry The Lancet critical care 674 00:28:29,789 --> 00:28:28,000 quarterly the journal for near-death 675 00:28:32,250 --> 00:28:29,799 experiences there's an entire journal 676 00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:32,260 that's set up for this the journal has 677 00:28:39,450 --> 00:28:35,289 articles Pro and against by naturalist 678 00:28:41,789 --> 00:28:39,460 by theists neurology journal in the past 679 00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:41,799 30 year period after moody published 680 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:44,860 life after life 55 researchers are teams 681 00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:47,850 published at least 65 studies of over 682 00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:51,039 3500 in DES now the reason I bring that 683 00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:53,440 up and that's old school to you Alex you 684 00:28:59,159 --> 00:28:56,620 know all this but I don't when I put 685 00:29:00,539 --> 00:28:59,169 something on a website or I make some 686 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:00,549 argument concerning near-death 687 00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:03,250 experiences what I see is the vast 688 00:29:07,919 --> 00:29:05,289 majority of people who are against them 689 00:29:10,260 --> 00:29:07,929 come back with responses that show they 690 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:10,270 have no clue about what the data is 691 00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:12,460 they're not even arguing about the data 692 00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:15,580 they've not read subohm they've not read 693 00:29:20,220 --> 00:29:18,220 moody they've not read these people 694 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:20,230 they've read an article on an atheist 695 00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:22,980 site about it and now they think they're 696 00:29:27,659 --> 00:29:26,110 their experts but we've got to somehow 697 00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:27,669 get back into this because this is 698 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:30,640 serious I mean if if life is more than 699 00:29:37,140 --> 00:29:33,850 meets the eye if naturalism in our brain 700 00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:37,150 is not all it is we need to we need to 701 00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:38,799 get in tune with it and we may disagree 702 00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:41,380 on some specifics of Christianity or 703 00:29:46,169 --> 00:29:43,750 new-age interpretations but this is 704 00:29:47,850 --> 00:29:46,179 important stuff and people need to get 705 00:29:49,919 --> 00:29:47,860 into the evidence and take a little more 706 00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:49,929 time with it and that's what I'm trying 707 00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:52,150 to lead people with my book and to say 708 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:54,340 here's your an introduction and here are 709 00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:56,500 some other books you can read positive 710 00:29:59,940 --> 00:29:58,690 and negative to get at the evidence 711 00:30:02,520 --> 00:29:59,950 because that's what I see people not 712 00:30:05,730 --> 00:30:02,530 doing today and you do a really nice job 713 00:30:08,190 --> 00:30:05,740 of that Steve as we said before it's you 714 00:30:10,770 --> 00:30:08,200 know it's not a long book you can jump 715 00:30:12,570 --> 00:30:10,780 right into it but you break it down in a 716 00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:12,580 way that's understandable but you still 717 00:30:17,220 --> 00:30:15,039 keep it rich with the references to the 718 00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:17,230 data like you just mentioned so all that 719 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:21,070 I think is is to your credit I think 720 00:30:25,970 --> 00:30:23,470 this process is is important and I think 721 00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:25,980 us talking about this 722 00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:27,720 in the way that you just did in terms of 723 00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:31,230 being personal kind of thing that you 724 00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:32,880 have to you know you didn't know and 725 00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:34,559 then you knew and then you had to dig 726 00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:36,870 deeper I mean I think it lets other 727 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:40,289 people know that you know what you have 728 00:30:46,669 --> 00:30:42,210 to go through if you want to get to that 729 00:30:48,379 --> 00:30:46,679 other side of knowing well when I was in 730 00:30:51,620 --> 00:30:48,389 high school is when I started getting 731 00:30:53,779 --> 00:30:51,630 serious about my personal faith but but 732 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:53,789 I continually went through personal 733 00:31:02,450 --> 00:30:56,730 doubts about am I on the right track am 734 00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:02,460 i not and and so a lot of my formal 735 00:31:07,159 --> 00:31:04,980 education was actually studying people 736 00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:07,169 with different perspectives I studied at 737 00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:08,700 the University of Georgia and their 738 00:31:14,570 --> 00:31:11,519 philosophy department and studied 739 00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:14,580 history of religions under a former 740 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:16,289 Buddhist monk who was probably still a 741 00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,289 Buddhist Chantal right Myakka and then I 742 00:31:23,659 --> 00:31:21,120 would study at a conservative Bible 743 00:31:25,820 --> 00:31:23,669 School I studied Greek for three and a 744 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:25,830 half years Hebrew for a couple of years 745 00:31:30,019 --> 00:31:27,570 so that I could get at the background 746 00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:30,029 and understand things when I'm talking 747 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:34,710 about religion Jesus teaching on it was 748 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:36,809 and his Sermon on the Mount he said seek 749 00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:39,210 and ye shall find and in the original 750 00:31:45,230 --> 00:31:41,940 Greek that word for seek is in a tense 751 00:31:47,629 --> 00:31:45,240 that means seek and keep on seeking I 752 00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:47,639 mean you look at Solomon back in the Old 753 00:31:53,930 --> 00:31:51,120 Testament and this guy was just a sponge 754 00:31:56,509 --> 00:31:53,940 for wisdom and knowledge and today what 755 00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,519 people seem to want to do is to go to 756 00:32:01,129 --> 00:31:58,559 some site that agrees with what they 757 00:32:04,129 --> 00:32:01,139 agree with and come and get a few quotes 758 00:32:07,879 --> 00:32:04,139 and use them to attack someone else but 759 00:32:10,879 --> 00:32:07,889 seeking takes time and a lot of the 760 00:32:12,889 --> 00:32:10,889 things in my book you can look at and 761 00:32:15,409 --> 00:32:12,899 you can just dismiss them outright at 762 00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:15,419 first thought but if you go on your back 763 00:32:21,049 --> 00:32:19,289 deck light up a philosophical pipe and 764 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:21,059 just smoke on this thing a little while 765 00:32:28,190 --> 00:32:24,330 you have to think about it you have to 766 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:28,200 say okay what if this is true what are 767 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:30,450 it's it's something that you can't have 768 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:33,570 quick and easy like fast food and you 769 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:35,970 know this with research there's nuance 770 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:38,610 to facts there are certain things that 771 00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:39,330 are just very 772 00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:40,980 very clear and you look at and some 773 00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:42,480 people like to be dogmatic about 774 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:44,670 everything but there's another side and 775 00:32:50,330 --> 00:32:47,610 to be open to that is extremely 776 00:32:53,150 --> 00:32:50,340 difficult and I'm sorry but it takes I 777 00:32:56,180 --> 00:32:53,160 mean if you looking at this I don't know 778 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:56,190 if you can see I've got my my house has 779 00:33:00,350 --> 00:32:58,410 thousands of books in it some of these 780 00:33:02,210 --> 00:33:00,360 books back on the shelf or near death 781 00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:02,220 experience books I probably had to read 782 00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:05,190 thousands of pages to try to get at this 783 00:33:11,930 --> 00:33:08,580 evidence I just don't see people willing 784 00:33:13,250 --> 00:33:11,940 to really seek people want to be 785 00:33:14,990 --> 00:33:13,260 comfortable with their opinions if 786 00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:15,000 they're a Republican they'll listen to 787 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:16,740 Rush Limbaugh and believe everything he 788 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:18,930 says if they're a Democrat they've got 789 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:20,850 their own sources and they believe what 790 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:23,010 they say but listen we've got to come 791 00:33:26,510 --> 00:33:24,570 with an open mind because these issues 792 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:26,520 are important they involve a whole 793 00:33:32,450 --> 00:33:29,910 eternity and not just time doesn't that 794 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:32,460 deserve our research it does and it's 795 00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:34,650 like I tell people if you get to debate 796 00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:36,870 and you'd it's just an impasse because 797 00:33:41,060 --> 00:33:38,670 someone's really closed-minded I said 798 00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:41,070 just remember one thing when you get 799 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:43,080 over there and it's all black look for a 800 00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:45,330 little bit of light look just remember 801 00:33:49,580 --> 00:33:47,070 I'm telling you this now look for that 802 00:33:51,950 --> 00:33:49,590 little speck of light and follow it it's 803 00:33:54,590 --> 00:33:51,960 it's an advice that you might really 804 00:33:57,170 --> 00:33:54,600 take advantage of a final question for 805 00:34:00,260 --> 00:33:57,180 you Steve you mentioned it a little bit 806 00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:00,270 ago this culture war thing that we are 807 00:34:05,180 --> 00:34:02,190 in the middle of it you mentioned it I 808 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:05,190 mentioned it and that's that you know we 809 00:34:12,190 --> 00:34:08,130 live in this kind of schizophrenic 810 00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:12,200 culture where we embrace sometimes 811 00:34:17,930 --> 00:34:15,600 spirituality religion we do not elect 812 00:34:21,410 --> 00:34:17,940 people unless they have this claim of 813 00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:21,420 faith even though we seriously doubt 814 00:34:28,070 --> 00:34:25,380 that for example mr. Obama President 815 00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:28,080 Obama is as he claims a you know devout 816 00:34:32,330 --> 00:34:30,390 follower and a really religious guy has 817 00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:32,340 he had to claim when he was you know 818 00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:34,380 being elect and then we let's say T did 819 00:34:38,660 --> 00:34:35,910 we really think that's true or George 820 00:34:40,970 --> 00:34:38,670 Bush you know who was really pandering 821 00:34:42,530 --> 00:34:40,980 to the Christians and now yo does he 822 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:42,540 really go to church anymore I mean 823 00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:44,370 there's a lot of the guy never goes to 824 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:46,080 church any worried he did it as a 825 00:34:50,720 --> 00:34:48,210 political necessity so we live in a 826 00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:50,730 culture where that is a reality but we 827 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:53,280 also live in a culture that is really a 828 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:55,169 mystic I mean when we really look at it 829 00:35:00,110 --> 00:34:58,170 science is certainly atheistic our news 830 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:00,120 media for the most part is definitely 831 00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:03,810 has this atheistic bent on it so you 832 00:35:08,270 --> 00:35:05,790 come along and you see this need and I 833 00:35:11,870 --> 00:35:08,280 see this need for digging into the data 834 00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,880 using the data to kind of bootstrap us 835 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:13,920 into a new paradigm come on is that 836 00:35:18,190 --> 00:35:15,210 really gonna happen 837 00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:18,200 it may happen to one or a few people you 838 00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:21,270 know we don't know that I'm convinced 839 00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:22,560 I've written some on personal finance 840 00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:26,460 I'm investing and all these great 841 00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:28,980 economists from the California 842 00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:31,200 universities and places where the 843 00:35:35,210 --> 00:35:33,270 government takes its data from when 844 00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:35,220 they're trying to predict the economy 845 00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:37,320 the one thing we know is they may be 846 00:35:42,020 --> 00:35:39,630 right about where we are right now but 847 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:42,030 they're consistently wrong in predicting 848 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:44,730 a year or two years out we don't know 849 00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:46,410 where this culture is going 850 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:48,540 we really don't a good book on this 851 00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:50,970 might be the twilight of atheism by 852 00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:53,700 Alister McGrath he goes back and looks 853 00:35:58,970 --> 00:35:57,240 at the history of thought you know with 854 00:36:01,490 --> 00:35:58,980 the French Revolution and all these 855 00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:01,500 different times when people are against 856 00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:03,510 religion and so they kind of threw it 857 00:36:08,330 --> 00:36:06,600 all out and said you know we'd be much 858 00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:08,340 better off without it let's let's start 859 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:11,390 out on an atheistic foundation well the 860 00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:14,610 1900's were were an experiment in that 861 00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,310 and we had the Russian Revolution and it 862 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:19,440 was a disaster you know all these 863 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:22,290 atheist states that came up well then 864 00:36:27,350 --> 00:36:24,570 after that many people from Russia were 865 00:36:29,150 --> 00:36:27,360 very open to religion because they had 866 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:29,160 that background well right now we're 867 00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:31,530 going through a time where because of 868 00:36:37,580 --> 00:36:34,710 9/11 because people are saying religion 869 00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:37,590 can be dangerous so there's a feeling in 870 00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:41,460 the air that oh we become open to people 871 00:36:47,870 --> 00:36:45,180 saying all religion is crazy but we have 872 00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:47,880 to be careful because these cultural 873 00:36:55,940 --> 00:36:52,200 things even in academia a philosophy in 874 00:36:58,850 --> 00:36:55,950 the 1900s is very very secular but now 875 00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:58,860 it's coming around a turning point so I 876 00:37:03,980 --> 00:37:01,440 see ourselves intellectually as being at 877 00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:03,990 a real turning point in philosophy we're 878 00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:05,940 kind of past all the 879 00:37:10,370 --> 00:37:08,400 you know language clarification where 880 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:10,380 you just kind of discussed God out of 881 00:37:16,579 --> 00:37:12,930 existence we're past that there's a 882 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:16,589 vigorous debate in theism and many 883 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:19,290 strong theists that are philosophers at 884 00:37:25,339 --> 00:37:23,130 this point in cosmology look at where we 885 00:37:27,170 --> 00:37:25,349 are a hundred years ago everybody was 886 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:27,180 saying that the universe had always been 887 00:37:32,180 --> 00:37:29,490 there for these things could have come 888 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:32,190 about and with an infinite enough amount 889 00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:33,810 of time anything could happen now 890 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,390 they're saying it had a beginning well 891 00:37:40,569 --> 00:37:38,640 that has implications but I think we've 892 00:37:43,550 --> 00:37:40,579 thought through these implications 893 00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:43,560 objectively enough to see where we are 894 00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:45,720 but when we have things like people 895 00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:47,940 because of religious motivations bombing 896 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:50,040 us I think that makes our culture very 897 00:37:55,130 --> 00:37:52,650 open to people who come in and say hey 898 00:37:58,490 --> 00:37:55,140 hey just look at all this religion it's 899 00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:58,500 just a farce and we have to be careful 900 00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:00,240 because we went through that once in the 901 00:38:05,059 --> 00:38:03,569 1900s and it was a disaster millions and 902 00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:05,069 millions of millions of people killed 903 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:08,310 under atheist states and the one thing 904 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:10,050 that these people agreed on who are 905 00:38:15,020 --> 00:38:12,450 leading these states is that nobody's 906 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:15,030 watching us from outside near death 907 00:38:18,589 --> 00:38:16,890 experiences say hey wait a minute 908 00:38:20,809 --> 00:38:18,599 there's evidence that somebody is 909 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:20,819 looking over you and that you're going 910 00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:23,970 to be accountable for that and I think 911 00:38:30,410 --> 00:38:26,760 this is a great turn but the lines are 912 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:30,420 divided people who see atheism and 913 00:38:35,809 --> 00:38:33,690 naturalism can seem to only see this the 914 00:38:37,819 --> 00:38:35,819 theists see their perspective we need to 915 00:38:40,430 --> 00:38:37,829 read each other we need to think because 916 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:40,440 these are deep issues they're important 917 00:38:44,660 --> 00:38:42,690 issues and we need to have these 918 00:38:45,230 --> 00:38:44,670 discussions thanks for having it with me 919 00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:45,240 Alex 920 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:48,720 thank you Steve again the book folks is 921 00:38:54,859 --> 00:38:51,690 near-death experiences as evidence for 922 00:38:57,559 --> 00:38:54,869 the existence of God in heaven a brief 923 00:38:59,300 --> 00:38:57,569 introduction plain language Steve the I 924 00:39:01,069 --> 00:38:59,310 should mention the book is also very 925 00:39:03,620 --> 00:39:01,079 affordable as a matter of fact if you 926 00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:03,630 have a Kindle you can borrow it for free 927 00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:06,420 at least I saw that offer available on 928 00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:09,180 Amazon or you can download it for a very 929 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:11,609 reasonable price wish you the best of 930 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:14,250 luck with it and thanks again so much 931 00:39:18,319 --> 00:39:15,810 for joining me today on skeptic oh 932 00:39:19,810 --> 00:39:18,329 thanks for having me thanks again to 933 00:39:22,090 --> 00:39:19,820 Steve Miller for joining me today 934 00:39:24,190 --> 00:39:22,100 and skeptic oh do check out his 935 00:39:26,290 --> 00:39:24,200 excellent book he really has a lot of 936 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:26,300 good information in there about 937 00:39:31,870 --> 00:39:28,910 near-death experience research and as he 938 00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:31,880 points out I think oftentimes on this 939 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:34,150 show we make the assumption that 940 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:36,850 everyone knows that there is this good 941 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:40,420 solid scholarly peer-reviewed research 942 00:39:44,890 --> 00:39:43,130 behind this near-death experience and 943 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:44,900 that's an assumption that we need to 944 00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:46,610 flesh out and let people know that that 945 00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:48,560 really is the case and books like 946 00:39:53,350 --> 00:39:50,750 Steve's allow people to jump into that 947 00:39:55,630 --> 00:39:53,360 research and get their arms around it so 948 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:55,640 one question that I would tea up from 949 00:39:59,950 --> 00:39:57,890 this interview and it is the question 950 00:40:03,250 --> 00:39:59,960 that I focused I think most of my energy 951 00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:03,260 on and that is does the near-death 952 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:06,110 experience phenomena as we know it from 953 00:40:11,770 --> 00:40:09,410 the research contradict Christian 954 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:11,780 doctrine would love to hear your opinion 955 00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:13,370 on that would love to hear you weigh in 956 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:15,710 on that question the place to do it is 957 00:40:22,930 --> 00:40:18,410 either on The Skeptical website at ske 958 00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:22,940 PTI ke o comm or you can leave a comment 959 00:40:28,750 --> 00:40:26,000 directly there or you can click and jump 960 00:40:30,910 --> 00:40:28,760 over to our popular forum or you'll find 961 00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:30,920 plenty of other folks who would love to 962 00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:34,190 engage in a dialogue with you on this 963 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:36,260 topic while you're at the sceptical 964 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:38,450 website be sure to check out all our 965 00:40:42,340 --> 00:40:40,250 past shows there's quite a collection 966 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:42,350 there on a variety of topics that you 967 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:43,490 might find interesting 968 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:45,290 and you can also connect with me 969 00:40:49,570 --> 00:40:46,970 directly there by dropping me an email 970 00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:49,580 or connecting with me through Facebook 971 00:40:53,170 --> 00:40:51,020 well that's going to do it for this 972 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:53,180 episode of skeptic Oh working on a 973 00:40:58,570 --> 00:40:55,490 number of different projects and shows 974 00:41:01,570 --> 00:40:58,580 coming up I hope you'll stay with me for